"We Are Trying to Give You the Land of Israel..." – A Rare Interview Conducted by Writer Reuven Brainin with ...

"We Are Trying to Give You the Land of Israel..." – A Rare Interview Conducted by Writer Reuven Brainin with Theodor Herzl at His Home in Basel

A fascinating interview with Theodor Herzl, conducted by writer and biographer Reuven Brainin at Herzl's home in Vienna following the Second Zionist Congress (just months before the Third Congress). The interview was published in six consecutive issues of "HaMelitz" between January and February 1899. In the interview, Herzl offers rare insights on various topics, including: His opponents: "They are dishonest people." His Zionist vision: "We are trying to give you the Land of Israel." His personal devotion to the Zionist cause: "How much money have I spent from my own pocket since I began my Zionist work...", His book Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State): "I wrote my book, The Jewish State, and with that, I felt I had fulfilled my duty to my people." His self-perception as a leader: "Everything I do, I do by my own conviction and inner recognition. If my actions are good and acceptable to you—so be it. If not, find yourselves another leader." The future of the Zionist movement after his death: "I created the Congress, and this creation is stronger than I am. If I die, let the next Congress president dedicate a brief eulogy to me and immediately move on to the pressing issues at hand...", and more. This collection contains the full interview as published in "HaMelitz" in issues 24, 25, 26, 28, 34, and 39. (It is important to note that the missing intermediate issues of "HaMelitz" did not contain additional parts of the interview—the text presented here is complete).

The writer, biographer, and Zionist activist Reuven Brainin traveled specially to Vienna to conduct an interview with Theodor Herzl regarding the most pressing questions that occupied the Jewish people about the Zionist movement and its path—particularly regarding "Political Zionism". Was it the beginning of a new era, or perhaps the end of one? Brainin also sought to hear Herzl’s response to the criticism voiced by many circles that he had "appointed himself" as a leader without the people accepting him as such. This interview took place after the Second Zionist Congress and just a few months before the Third Zionist Congress in August of that year.  "I came to Vienna to see and observe firsthand the unfolding of this new era for Israel, in its very creation and formation, " Brainin describes. In this historic interview, we gain a rare glimpse into Theodor Herzl’s mindset, his emotions, his self-perception in relation to the movement he founded, and his vision during this pivotal period in the early days of Political Zionism under his leadership. Brainin met Herzl at his home on the morning of January 23, 1899, as a gesture of distinction from Herzl: "My friend Herzl’s acquaintances told me that he usually receives those who approach him on Zionist matters at the editorial office of 'Die Welt.' Yet, for me, he made an exception." Brainin describes how, after Herzl introduced him to his father, his wife, and his three children, the two sat down for the interview—but not before Herzl explicitly granted Brainin permission to publish the conversation in the newspaper "HaMelitz."

At the beginning of the interview, Herzl was asked his opinion on the opponents of "Political Zionism" (the approach in which Herzl prioritized a political solution for the Jewish people in the Land of Israel, postponing questions of Jewish identity and ideology). Herzl responded: "Our opponents are dishonest people."

When the interviewer remarked that he knew many of them personally and that many were, in fact, honest people, Herzl replied: "Then they are ignorant fools."

Brainin continued, asking Herzl about a major global event that had taken place two months earlier—his meeting with Kaiser Wilhelm II in Jerusalem. He inquired whether Herzl’s decision to go to Jerusalem and meet the Kaiser was intended to demonstrate political sovereignty—that is, to present Herzl as the representative of the "state-in-the-making." At the time, many critics dismissed or even opposed the meeting, arguing that Herzl did not represent the Jewish people before the German Kaiser. Herzl responded:  "The German Kaiser is one of the great political architects of our time... Indeed, I do not concern myself with the education of the next generation. I act according to the forces that are presently available and at hand... For there are countless streams and tendencies within Judaism, and it is impossible to judge fairly which one is correct or to decide between them... We are trying to give you the Land of Israel, and once the people take hold of it, their natural inclination will determine which ideology is right and appropriate for their character, their spirit, and their development."

Brainin pressed further, questioning Herzl in a critical tone, presenting him with the perspective that a significant portion of the Jewish people did not view him as "a leader at the helm", and that he had essentially appointed himself to leadership without the people's approval. Herzl responded with pain, revealing that he had never intended to lead the Zionist movement in the first place:  "How many sacrifices have I made for our cause, for our dream? How much money have I spent from my own pocket since I began my Zionist work? Everything I do, I do by my own conviction and inner recognition, and I cannot act otherwise. If my actions are good and acceptable to you—so be it. If not, then seek another person to stand at your head." Herzl then provided a remarkable insight into his original intention when writing The Jewish State and how leadership was thrust upon him against his will: "I wrote my book The Jewish State, and in doing so, I believed I had fulfilled my duty to my people. I assumed that someone else would emerge to turn my vision into reality, while I would return to my literary work and my peace. But then the Zionists came, and fate assisted them—they dragged me out of my study, pulled me into the battlefield, and placed me at the head. And now that I have begun working for my people, I cannot turn back from the path I have chosen. It is now the duty of those who chose me to assist me and to uphold discipline and order."

Brainin continued questioning Herzl about the fragile reality in which he was essentially the "sole ruler" of the Zionist movement. The movement had accepted Herzl without dispute as a "one-man rule", but Brainin raised concerns: What if Herzl made a mistake? Would he lead the entire people astray? And what would happen after his death—would the Zionist movement be left like a flock without a shepherd? Herzl responded:  "In other words, what will happen if I die... Indeed, although I consider myself a healthy man in the prime of my strength, I have given much thought to what will become of my work after my death, and I will answer you. Everything I have done and am doing for the political idea I have chosen is written and sealed in documents that are safely kept with me. These documents will be handed over, after my passing, to my ideological brethren who are worthy of them. Furthermore, I have created the Congress, and this creation is stronger than I am. If I die, let the president of the next Congress dedicate a brief eulogy to me and immediately move on to the pressing issues at hand." It is astounding how Herzl’s words were fulfilled just four years later, when he passed away at only 44 years old. 

Later in the interview, Herzl emphasized the critical role of Zionist writers in spreading the movement’s message in every language and tongue, urging as many people as possible to subscribe to the Jewish Colonial Bank shares:  "Sign! Sign! Sign!" (Brainin notes: "Herzl spoke with great enthusiasm, his facial expressions more animated than usual.") "All our labor will be in vain if we do not establish the Jewish Bank now... As proof of my commitment, I myself have signed for numerous shares on behalf of my children... The Jewish Bank will lend money to the Ottoman government under favorable terms, and in return, it will grant us settlement licenses in the Land of Israel." Herzl also stressed the need for European governments to become involved in the Zionist cause, highlighting the importance of reducing reliance on the Ottoman Empire, which at the time controlled the Land of Israel.

In the final issue, Brainin expresses his conclusions and impressions following his interview with Herzl, as well as his personal feelings in Herzl’s presence: 

"At the end of our conversation, he spoke at length, his words flowing uninterrupted for more than half an hour. He spoke with warmth and extraordinary enthusiasm." Brainin sums up his impressions:  "I saw and was convinced that all his words, actions, letters, thoughts, and reflections are entirely directed toward *his great idea—'The Jewish State.' He adds: "Herzl is an optimist and believes that with money, the Land of Israel can be purchased. This is why he becomes angry and irritated when speaking of our wealthy Jews who stand at a distance from the Zionist cause." Brainin also criticizes Herzl, stating:

"Jewish wisdom, literature, and language—when considered on their own—are meaningless in Herzl’s eyes. They hold value *only to the extent that they serve the idea of 'The Jewish State.' Herzl believes that anyone who does not fully adhere to his idea in all its details is not a Jew at all...". He describes Herzl as a mysterious figure, keeping his great moves a secret: "He loves to cloak small matters in grand words. He loves secrecy, concealment, and mystery—even when there is no need for it. He constantly strives to appear before the Jewish public through a veil, like the hero of legend... He knows how to evade questions he does not wish to answer clearly... He favors people who submit to him and accept his views... We, the Jews of the East, must speak openly and repeatedly to our leader, whom we know to honor and respect as he deserves... The Third Zionist Congress is approaching..." 

Reuven Brainin (1862–1939): Brainin published several biographical works on Zionist leaders, including Moritz Lazarus, Moshe Gideman, Theodor Herzl, Israel Zangwill, and Max Nordau. He regularly covered the early Zionist Congresses. In 1909, he immigrated to the United States, where he founded the weekly newspaper "HaDror" in New York. Between 1912 and 1916, he lived in Montreal, Canada, serving as editor of the Zionist newspaper "Keneder Adler" and later of "Der Veg" (1915–1916). He was also one of the founders of the Canadian Jewish Congress (CJCCC) and the Jewish Public Library in Montreal.

Complete set of six issues. Very good condition.